Introduction
In this interview, I had the opportunity to speak with Judith Gundersen, the CEO of NCBE, about her career and leadership in the legal field. Her perspective on her work and the connections she made was refreshing because it was rooted in the people around her. Through our conversation, I learned that meaningful impact can often come from the simplest tasks and the little things that we don't take time to think about. I hope her insights can serve as a reminder that leadership and confidence can be built in our daily lives if we are mindful of what we want to achieve.
How would you define your role? What does a day at work look like for you?
For the most part, my regular schedule is different every day, and I’m usually doing multiple things at once. For example, this morning I had a check in with a senior staff member to talk about some system changes that would allow our customers to better access our records. Other than that, there are always personnel issues, contract changes, and other factors that change constantly. There’s always a lot of interaction with other people. In my position as a CEO here at NCBE, I meet a lot of people both inside and outside of the organization. We’re responsible for helping give licenses to lawyers, and every state uses the tests that we create here. We also provide character investigative services for jurisdictions. And those jurisdictions, those are the state Supreme Courts. They are our customers, so there’s a big outward focus on the people who do the actual work of admitting, like bar administrators and executive directors. So in general, my work deals with communication and listening to what the customers actually want.
How did your journey as a leader in the legal field start?
When you start law school, people always say they try to change the way you think. It’s almost like you’re relearning your own thought processes, which was very eye-opening for me. After graduating, I worked at a bank for a while in the trust department, but I didn’t do it for that long because my interests changed after I was selected for jury duty. I ended up loving it, and as I watched the prosecutor trying the case, I thought to myself, “I could do that.” I then got a job at the D.A.’s office and worked as a prosecutor for ten years before I came to NCBE. I didn’t know anything about this line of work and lawyer licensing because no one really talks about it to young people. However, it came into my life as a really interesting line of work and also a good space to be in, so I’m grateful I ended up here.
What part of your job do you find to be the most rewarding?
I think the most rewarding part is when we create change and succeed in a way that benefits the profession of law and the public. Our company has done a lot of work to modernize the bar exam’s format in terms of converting from paper to digital. More than that, the content is changing to become more skill-focused. These changes are an opportunity for potential lawyers to demonstrate different abilities that we find in real life instead of testing their basic memory. There’s a constant effort to make things more streamlined, to make things more consistent, and to make sure that we’re being fair to candidates. All of these services that our organization takes care of form our mission to serve the profession and ensure it stays ethical and diverse. Every little victory matters, because it keeps us going.
When you face obstacles in your work, what is your strategy for overcoming them?
I think taking the time to step back and think is a helpful strategy. If you wait for a couple hours or a day after something happens, you see things from a different perspective. Allowing for that reflection is important to your concentration when you problem-solve. As I said earlier, it’s also helpful to look at all the good things that have happened. All the staff I work with are smart and dedicated, and we also have a wonderful network of volunteers who help us. Even when I hit a big obstacle, I’m reassured by all the good people around me who make the job easier. When you think about it, those people are the most sustaining force there is. You’re motivated by them and the need to not let them down.
What are some soft skills that have helped you to be more successful and productive in your work?
Listening is very important, as is patience. Most people do things for a rational reason, right? So we have to think about why they would do certain things. We have to put ourselves into other people’s shoes and take the tim to get their perspective and hear their side. Doing this allows us to be more empathetic. In my work, I like to try and be part of the solution for someone I am helping because it gives us that connection.
Who are some role models from different stages of your life who have inspired you on your journey?
My teachers from all different ages still stick with me. Even today, decades later, I have educators I still think about because they were so smart and kind. I saw those same qualities in my mom. She was a lifelong learner, and always very curious. She was also the kindest person I’ve ever known. Once I grew up and went to college, my professors taught me to think about things in a new way and ignited a deeper understanding of different subjects in me. In my career, many of the lawyers I’ve worked with taught me how to be good at what I do. Overall, all these people who influenced me were people who always exhibited the highest of ethical standards.
What does being a leader mean to you?
It varies a little bit across different roles, but there are some common qualities and traits that every leadership role shares. You have to be able to push people and urge for change. For that, you have to be bold, and to achieve that you might even have to push yourself first. That’s what a leader should really do - inspire others to take action. That happens when you’re confident in your abilities and those of people around you.
Another thing that makes a difference is putting yourself out there. For me, that looks like trying to learn a lot. I read everything I can, whether that’s newspapers or information related to legal education. If you want to be in a leadership role, you have to be really well versed in what the bigger picture looks like. It allows you to be a more effective catalyst for change when you have a better idea of what’s happening in the world. Being engaged and interested in the work that you do is self-motivating. I’ve never looked at my work as a burden - I’m always excited and ready to work.
How has the legal world changed over time during your time in the field?
I think we’re living in a time of some upheaval. Courts are looking at the possibility of having a bigger pipeline to possibly allow more people to have the chance to be admitted. There’s some talk about reforming the bar exam beyond what we’ve already done and turning it into something almost like a portfolio submission. You would work for a law firm or other institution and perform all sorts of legal tasks, like doing a motion hearing, defending a deposition, etc. There’s more buzz now because there’s a gap with the access to justice. It’s hard for a lot of people to find a lawyer who can represent them, and then be able to afford it. We see this playing out across the country, and it’s spurring a lot of conversation about restructuring how we serve the public and ensuring that there are enough professionals.
There was also a lot of disruption during COVID. People were questioning why there was even a test, and there were so many problems. We still pivoted pretty quickly to make our exams remotely accessible until it was safe to gather in spaces with masks.
When you mention the pandemic, how do you think that the shift to remote work has affected legal professionals?
It’s possible you could’ve figured out how to try a case remotely, but so much of what a jury draws from relies on what they see in person. It’s scary to make that same decision through a screen and think about what that could do to a person’s constitutional rights. A lot of trials were delayed, and there was an enormous backlog.
However, I love the flexibility that remote work introduced for working moms. When my kids were in middle school, I had to be in court by 8 in the morning while also getting them ready for school, but the pandemic blew that away for people. Even as we shift back to more traditional environments, that lasting benefit of being able to choose is really good for working parents.
What is one last piece of advice you would give to young people who hope to go into professional fields?
Especially for young women, I would tell them to have confidence in themselves. It’s really important to listen to what your voice tells you. Young women are often made to feel hesitant of their own judgement, but that needs to change. Confidence can be a difficult thing to embrace, but it gets easier over time. The other thing is to keep learning. We collect a lot of experiences as we grow, and each interaction has an impact on us. We’re a product of all our experiences and all the people that we’ve met. Soak up all the advice and stories that people out there have.